Friday, June 6, 2008

It's Fun To Do Bad Things

If you ever had any doubts about Total Depravity this should clear them up.

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5 comments:

Preston N said...

Chris

Why is it then they (the police) do not treat this child as an adult? If he is just as depraved as any other adult then throw the book at him!

I am just glad this little guy didn't die in all of this as clearly God would have sent him straight to Hell for being so wicked. Gee, I better start hiding the car keys from my 6yr old son as you can never tell when he might get the urge to steal the family car!

Clearly anyone with a lick of sense can see this young man has no discipline in his family and has been left to live according to the desires of his flesh. Chris, this would be a case where Jesus said - "cause not one of these little ones to sin". The parents are to blame here as any one with an inch of good parenting skills can see.

Chris said...

Preston,

We are clearly never going to agree on this issue; I believe that the Bible teaches that we are born with a sin nature, and you don't. I believe that we sin because we are sinners and you believe that we are sinners because we sin.

Scripture aside, this kid (who is only seven years old) knows what he did was wrong and he says that he doesn't care because "it is fun to do bad things." I am sure that his parents are to blame for many things in this child's life, but the bottom line is that he knew what he was doing was wrong, and he deliberately chose to do it anyway. Why? Because he is sinful just like the rest of us.

What I don't understand from your theology is how you can say that man is not born with a sin nature when there is not a single descendant of Adam who has not sinned. Do we just wake up one day at about 13 years old and make a conscience decision to go sin?

Romans 5 tells a different story; it tells us "just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned" (Ro 5:12). It then goes on to say, a few verses later: "For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ(Ro 5:16-17).

Romans 3 tells us that ALL have sinned, and that there is none righteous, none who understand, none who seek after God. All have turned aside and become useless. There is no one who does good - NOT EVEN ONE.

I know that you will have some other understanding for these passages and you will say that my hermeneutic is all wrong, but that does not chage the fact that these verses teach that we are ALL sinners in need of God's grace, which come through the Lord Jesus Christ, and through Him ALONE!

I read your post on the Essential Elements of the Gospel, and I couldn't disagree more with your conclusions. I am not the one teaching "another gospel" you are. The Bible teaches that we are all born in sin and born under the wrath of God - we are children of wrath - and that Jesus took the wrath of His Father, which I deserved, upon Himself on the cross paying the penalty for my sin. And now, through faith in Him and His finished work on that cross, I have repented of my sins and am justified. Now as I walk with Him day by day, through the power of His Spirit, He is molding me more and more into His image. As I grow closer to Him He shows me sins that I didn't even know I was committing and I repent of those and He makes me a little more like Him. This is Sanctification and this is what proves that my salvation is genuine (those whom God foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son).

You don't believe in OSAS, that's fine, but I believe that once you have been made a new creation in Christ it cannot be undone. This is not a license to sin, and I don't believe that there is any such thing as a continuously carnal Christian, but neither do I believe that we will ever reach sinless perfection on this side of heaven - but again, that does not mean that sin is acceptable - It is NOT.

You say you believe that we are not born a sinner, but that we become one as we gain knowledge and make a moral choice to sin. But if you really believed this you would shut down you blog and never post another word, because if you really believed this you would not want to increase anyone's knowledge and thereby, their guilt.

You also said that the doctrine of Total Depravity views sin as physical and not moral. I don't know which of these is the proper definition, but I do know that Jesus said "if you look at a woman with lust you commit adultery in your heart." This is not a physical act, but you are just as guilty as if you had committed the physical act. Either way, whether moral or not, this is still something that you do - and you do it because it is in your nature (old nature if you are a Christian) to do so.

Like I said above, we are never going to agree on this: I believe Open Theism is heretical and that it robs God of His Sovereignty, and I believe that governmental atonement changes the meaning of the cross and that if you don't believe that Jesus took the wrath of God in your place and paid the penalty for your sins on the cross you are not saved.

You believe that the doctrines of Grace (Calvinism) are heretical and that I am believing a false gospel.

One of us is clearly wrong here - but I believe that I have Scripture on my side. So I am going to keep trusting in Jesus, I am going to repent of each and every sin that He brings to my attention, I am going to keep studying my Bible, and I am going to share my faith with everyone that I can because this is what Jesus has commanded me to do.

And one more thing, in 1 John 1:8 the tense of the word HAVE (as in "if we say that we HAVE no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth in not in us") is a Present Indicative Active verb in the Greek, which means that it is (Present tense)a present action, (Active voice)being accomplished by the subject (we), and (Indicative mood) a statement of fact. So what this verse says is that if you say that you do not have any sin, right now - you are deceived and the truth in not in you. This is not proof texting.

I will keep praying for you, Preston. God Bless,
Chris

Preston N said...

Chris

All it seems I am doing at this point is nothing more than throwing pearls to swine. It is time I stop this debate as your settled in your mind that you have truth. At this point I will shake the dust off my sandles and just pray that you awaken from this deception of Calvinism.

BTW - The verse I referenced was 1 John 1:10

If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

God Bless Chris.

Chris said...

I never referenced 1 John 1:10 specifically if you reread my previous comments, I referenced the whole first chapter. But that is not important here, the important thing is that the verse 8 clearly says that you are deceiving yourself and not in the truth if you claim that you don't have (present tense) any sin.

Therefore, you are self deceived and you are not in the truth. You have chosen to worship another Jesus, and you are teaching a false gospel that is leading yourself, your family and those whom you teach to Hell.

1 John 5:12 says that whoever has the Son has life, but whoever does not have the Son does not have life. You do not have the Son, because you have rejected the Jesus of the Bible and replaced Him with a god you have created, one that didn't die for your sins, one that is not sovereign, and one that is limited by the creation that He made. This is NOT the Jesus of the Bible. I just pray that your eyes will be opened and that you will come to know the truth before it's too late.

Preston N said...

Chris

Funny how willing you are to tell me that me and my family are going to Hell, because we believe in a "different gospel" - but yet you still can not reconcile within in your own mind to truly believe I just can't help from believing this way for I am merely fulfilling God's providence and foreknowledge.

Funny how you still can't reconcile predeterminism and fate and a real world of choices and contingencies. Funny how you say you can be holy - but yet promote a gospel that tells people its OK to sin here and there every once in a while. Funny Chris, how when I put forth verses such a 1 John 2:4 that says "Walk as Jesus did" and yet you continue to tell others that its OK to Sin - whereas you condemn me for saying we have the ability not to sin. Chris, sadly your a double-minded man. Your a man who says he is holy, but yet defends sinning. If you deny this - then look at how you have attacked me over and over on my blog. Every attack was over me telling people to stop sinning and be holy. But yet you come along and tell me and others I am the one who is a heretic. Chris, regardless what you think you have defended sin. Why? Because your a double minded man - a man that realizes he should stop sinning, but yet is not truly willing to fully change his heart and his motives to do so. As Paul states - you are indeed a "Wretched Man".

Besides the God you put forth is not the God of the Bible but that of a few wretched heretics named Calvin, Luther and Anslem. A history lesson would serve you well Chris that the theology you believe in has not "always been the gospel" as you seem to claim. It is with such arrogance and ignorance you do so - and some day that ignorance will have some dire consequences.

In all honesty Chris I wish nothing but the best for you, I hope that someday you will awaken from the conflicted and contradictory theology you believe in. A theology that has turned grace into a license to sin (or as you claim just a little sin every once in a while).